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To weld or not to weld

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To weld or not to weld

Postby Smith3210 on Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:21 pm

I've been considering welding my rear diff for some time now and want others opinions.the reason being im getting annoyed at being cross axaled and going nowhere also the last time I was out on a particularly argumentative lane I got stranded in a deep rut and had to watch the guy In front disappear into the distance on what looked like one wheel drive.he dose have a welded diff . so far I believe the negatives are extra wear on the tyre and poor cornering what else? I'm Also thinking of putting my spare road wheels on this save the MUDs is this going too be a good or bad idea i was thinking about the extra grip on the road with a welded diff and the extra load on the rest of the drive train what's likely to break next. Ho and by the way I'm cheep so an lsd swap or some kind of aftermarket locker is out of the question
Thanks in advance for the replys
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby fudge on Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:47 pm

well if i was you i would do the front if any.. as then you can have it unlocked for the road and then one side locked in, and lock the other in when you need it
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby DarrenH_2.2 on Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:39 pm

as mentioned to me, lokka.com do auto locking frontera diffs for a laughably cheap price,
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby Retro Pedro on Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:49 pm

Steve - have a drive in mine on the road to give you the full picture of the downside of the welded diff. OK once you get going but for those tight manoveurs, I got to say I hate it. With road tyres on (which I've got at the mo) I'm concerned the extra friction will take it's toll on the UJs and anywhere else the extra strain is going to get transferred to. I've just had to do the rear UJ again and on not alot of miles since the last one let go.
The welded diff or locked diff is awesome off road in the mud. As you saw, 2 wheels pushing does make alot of difference and you definately get rid of the cross axle situations. Plus when in 4 wheel drive, with the rear wheels controlling the speed of the front wheels via the transfer box, it definately helps preserve the front diff.
I know it's the wrong time of year with Chrimbo etc round the corner but if you want to lock the rear, Lokka is coming up trumps at the moment with their Aussie locker for the Frontera.
There are a few guys that have run with welded fronts who may come in with some pointers for you but I remember Paul used to quite often have to run with one of the manual hubs unlocked because of the steering problems with both sides locked up.
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby ghosthunter on Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:39 am

I'd weld the front and run with unlocked hubs. As people have said a wedged rear is not much fun on the road, a novelty at first but a pain in the butt after a short time.
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby DarrenH_2.2 on Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:50 am

official land rover instructional video says that to avoid getting cross axled plan your route and dont get cross axled :D

left foot braking can get you out of bother sometimes (brake holds the unladen wheel which then channels torque back through the diff to the loaded wheel)
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby gregster on Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:52 pm

DarrenH_2.2 wrote:left foot braking can get you out of bother sometimes (brake holds the unladen wheel which then channels torque back through the diff to the loaded wheel)

In reality this only works on a landrover where the the brake imbalance is such that 50% of the time this would work as they will act like fiddle brakes.
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby Smith3210 on Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:36 pm

Pete I'll take you up on that offer next time were out if that's ok.
How would a welded front diff work with auto hubs ? And I agree a lokka would be the answer and if it was a 2.8 I would save the penny's and do it but it's a 2.4 so the lokka would be worth more than the car :D out of interest has anyone fitted an Aussie lokka or know someone who has ?
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby Retro Pedro on Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:40 pm

Steve, when I looked earlier in the week and then done the $ to £ conversion the rear Lokka came in at £143 delivered to the UK.
They advertise 2 flavours for the Frontera listing, seems one for the A series and one for the B series.
Chris had Aussie lockers front and rear in his LWB 2.8 and I believe all worked brilliantly. Also there is a fella on Muddies that says he's done he's B series rear with a Fronty locker. Seems he had an issue initially getting the right part but eventually got it sorted.
From there you will have to consider fitting the locker. Actually taking the spider cogs out and fitting the locker is not to difficult, but it's the pre-load and back lash malarky that puts the wind up me. Does need to be done correctly because it's an intergal component that won't last 5 minutes if it's set up out of kilt.
Lokka listing that they now sale Aussies that fit direct into the Frontera seems to be a real gem. Pre this, it meant buying the locker for the Isuzu Trooper, sourcing a Trooper rear axle with an 'open' diff which are like rocking horse poo and then doing the rear axle transplant with the modded locker diff. On top of that the rear prop would have needed shortening by the 2" required. What I can't get my head into is that Lokka want getting on for double the money for a Trooper locker compared to the Frontera flavour.
Don't think its to good to be true but a few confirmation factors would be very welcomed. What would really be a massive help is if anybody that has got a Frontera A or B series removed rear axle and could confirm shaft spline count and shaft diameter.
If a front locker is being considered, I know for sure the Trooper Aussie locker will NOT fit into a Frontera 3rd member housing. The Frontera housing isn't big enough to accept the Trooper Aussie. Weather an angle grinder will sort the problem how knows but with lumps cut out wouldn't have thought it will do the strength of the housing any good.
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby gregster on Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:03 pm

Why dont you fiddle brake the rear end instead Ste....that way when one looses traction you can lock it off and drive out, you can turn tighter circles, and you will have better steering on reverse decents... :wink:
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby yaki on Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:03 pm

Smith3210 wrote: out of interest has anyone fitted an Aussie lokka or know someone who has ?


Yep, me :D

Front and rear, bought them as a pair, fitted the front first and ran with just that for a year before pulling my finger out and sourcing a rear open diff and doing the rear.

They are awesome, absolutely transformed the Frontera and it wasn't bad before, it goes places where others are winching :D Did the last Jeep Junkies bash at Bridgenorth and it was going places most of them couldn't including my mate in his G Wagon, only thing that let it down was the length, LWB just doesn't cut it in tight wood sections

They do have some negatives, but these are only minor quibbles

1. They do add some slop to the drivetrain
2. You have to adjust your driving style on tarmac in tight turns and be gentle on the throttle
3. You can hear them ratchet when you go round corners and everyone thinks your diff is knackered
4. They do occasionally lockup when off road and do not release properly, not a problem for the rear but can make the steering heavy until it unlocks. Usually this happens after a seriously muddy climb and you stop suddenly, diff has locked as it detected some slip and you stop before it releases. Quick stab of throttle while lifting the clutch pops it out and away you go.
5. You can't fit fiddle brakes and I would love fiddle brakes, maybe one day will get an air locker for the rear instead

On the plus side, they are fit and forget, no worries about air compressors, air leaks etc, they come in when needed and release automatically. One thing I noticed on my mates G Wagon is you can lock the rear and leave it in when off road, the front you have to engage manually as needed and quickly disengage when not as the steering gets really heavy, no worries with the Aussie locker as it just does it stuff.

When I bought mine they were about the same price as a winch (exchange rate was really good) and I would go for a locker over a winch any day

Couple of vids, 1st one with just the front locker fitted at the FOG Annual in Bala a few years ago, don't think anyone made it through there without assistance

Last one at a local play site last year, the video makes it look really easy and it is with lockers, some of the stuff you have no chance of doing in the wet without them, especially the last bit where the Jeep gets stuck



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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby DarrenH_2.2 on Fri Nov 07, 2014 10:54 am

gregster wrote:
DarrenH_2.2 wrote:left foot braking can get you out of bother sometimes (brake holds the unladen wheel which then channels torque back through the diff to the loaded wheel)

In reality this only works on a landrover where the the brake imbalance is such that 50% of the time this would work as they will act like fiddle brakes.


i didn't find this in my 90, you don't have to completely lock one brake for it to work. you just need to stop the diff being able to rotate the half shaft with least resistance, equal braking will do that. nowhere near as effective as fiddle obviously, but thats why i said sometimes get you out of trouble. to be frank, its interesting in a kind of "wonder what will happen if i drive over this" but in all other cases the advice is funny, but sound, plan your route and take obstacles head on.

on late model puma engined defenders they use the abs as fiddle brakes. i was watching one on deliberate axle twister at eastwell manor, you can see the unladen wheel notching round, really interesting to watch.

question for yaki, re: the "lokka" is the axle free-wheeling when its in the unlocked state, or does it still power the wheels while "differentiating" ? cant see any gearing in there, maybe it freewheels the half without the crown wheel attached ?
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby albeano on Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:51 pm

I cannot find the locks for a swb 2.0 any ideas chaps?
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby Retro Pedro on Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:56 pm

Haven't looked lately on Lokka.com but when they used to list for Frontera they seemed to have got their specs wrong which Steve had the unfortunate experience of finding out.
The key factors are the spline count and shaft diameter. Then from there the unit as to physically fit into the 1/3rd member carrier housing.
I believe the history was that Matt of Indy4x4 persuaded Lokka to additionally manufacture a production run to fit the MkII and III Trooper, hence for the 2.8 with accompanying axle transplant Lokka ratchet lockers are an option.
Don't believe it would be a feasible consideration to fit Trooper axles on a 2.0 Fronty and even harder should the Fronty be a leafer
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby crash_ndie on Sun Jul 24, 2016 9:35 pm

probably a stupid question but are air lockers out of the question ? been thiking of welding my A series up but reading this pros and cons i think ill give it a miss and try something eles
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby Retro Pedro on Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:12 am

crash_ndie wrote:probably a stupid question but are air lockers out of the question ? been thiking of welding my A series up but reading this pros and cons i think ill give it a miss and try something eles

All about if your motor is purely a toy or used as a daily road runner.
Your 2.3 probably being a leafer I would have thought not. Steve found out that his 2.4 leafer was a 32 spline, hence his problem with a Lokka ratchet locker not fitting.
Various people do make air lockers, ARB, KAM and probably cheapest option being the Chinese ARB copies. The problem is alot of them were manufactured for the Isuzu 4x4's. This is where the problem lies because on the Isuzu Trooper, an Isuzu Corporation axle is used which as a removable 1/3rd member housing the differential. On the Vauxhall/Opel believe I'm right in saying a GM axle designed on a Salisbury design was the order of the day. These axles do NOT have the removable 1/3rd member, hence the total different design so chances of an off the shelf diff locker fitting are remote.
Personally I never investigated the option, but perhaps a different manufacturers rear axle could be swapped in. Mitsu Shogan/Toyota Landcruiser or such like but it would need alot of homework doing first before you parted with any cash.
To my mind first and foremost would be leafer compatability and then finding out axle width and suspension, brakes etc. connection.
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby RatCav on Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:28 am

Retro Pedro wrote:This is where the problem lies because on the Isuzu Trooper, an Isuzu Corporation axle is used which as a removable 1/3rd member housing the differential. On the Vauxhall/Opel believe I'm right in saying a GM axle designed on a Salisbury design was the order of the day. These axles do NOT have the removable 1/3rd member, hence the total different design so chances of an off the shelf diff locker fitting are remote.


Correct :D

You could always go down the Trooper axle route. Though the Frontera 2.3TD has a diff ratio of 4.88:1 The closest you will get to that on an Isuzu is 4.555:1 on the Mk.I 2.6 Petrols (1986-1991) which is also a leafer. later models (1992 onwards) are all coilers).
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby robbie on Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:03 pm

Would one of the newer tfr (dmax)pickup axles not be closer ratio
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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby RatCav on Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:31 pm

New D-Max specs:

Image

No joy there .. and besides you have the complicated SOTF system to also take into account and make work. Combine that with the lack of support in the States for Isuzu you won't find an aftermarket diff lock system for It I fear.

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Re: To weld or not to weld

Postby crash_ndie on Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:25 am

did you hear the whoosh ? that was the ratio and final drive things going over my head :wtf: ...am actually thinking of changing the lump out to something a tab bit meaty, what sort of horses would these axles take before melting out? ... and no i havent decided on what lump yet .... hummm what about a

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MERCEDES-ATEG ... SwmtJXYArZ

:lol: :lol:
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